00:00:02:06 - 00:00:28:11
Robert Fagan
Leadership is hard, and I'm not trying to make it easy or oversimplify it with this discussion. And if you're the manager of a store or you're leading a farm, or you are a Faith-Based leader, all those things are very difficult to accomplish. The things that you're trying to accomplish. And there are, as you just alluded to, there are rooms and rooms for books and dissertations about leadership.
00:00:28:13 - 00:00:54:23
Robert Fagan
But I think we can give crisis leadership in its own category and therefore start to study it so we can be better at it. And I believe some things do, said crisis leadership apart from, let's just call it regular leadership. And that is in crisis leadership by definition. You're always working in a suboptimal environment.
00:00:55:00 - 00:01:14:18
Kyle King
Welcome to another episode of the Crisis Lab podcast. I'm your host, Kyle, and today we're delving into the topic of crisis leadership. We are joined by Mr. Robert Fagan, who is currently a senior emergency manager and exercise planner at Global Eagle Consulting. Robert is a retired colonel from the US Army and an expert in public health, emergency preparedness and disaster response.
00:01:14:20 - 00:01:44:11
Kyle King
His career spans combat and United Nations tours, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations. And our conversation aims to introduce the concept of strategic crisis leadership. We will explore the intricate differences between leadership and crisis leadership, the importance of crisis leadership in the face of disruptions to normal operations and Mr. Fagan's experiences with crisis leadership in various contexts, from the military field to humanitarian assistance and disaster relief operations.
00:01:44:13 - 00:01:46:06
Kyle King
Rod, thanks for joining us today.
00:01:46:08 - 00:01:47:09
Robert Fagan
Absolutely.
00:01:47:11 - 00:02:05:13
Kyle King
Before we dive into these leadership issues and unpack these a little bit more, maybe just give us a brief overview of your experience as you were coming out of the US Army, and also how it shaped your perspective on crisis leadership, because there's a difference between the military view of leadership during crisis and then, of course, a civilian view of leadership during crisis.
00:02:05:13 - 00:02:08:02
Kyle King
So it just we'll start with that and hear your first thoughts.
00:02:08:04 - 00:02:30:17
Robert Fagan
Sure. Thank you very much, Kyle, for having me. And it's a great topic to discuss. first and foremost, I don't want to give the impression that I think that a military organization, or even the United States military in its various forms, owns leadership, right? There's lots of books that talk about various military forms of leadership and how they can be applied to the private sector and so on and so forth.
00:02:30:19 - 00:03:01:03
Robert Fagan
And while that might be true, I just like to think that some of the basic themes that come out of initial military training are good for leaders, right? And so, you know, working with people, understanding how to accomplish a task or a mission, understanding, resources, all of these come about in initial military leadership training and in your initial jobs in the military.
00:03:01:05 - 00:03:27:14
Robert Fagan
But my experience has been that the more you grow in terms of your position, in terms of your responsibilities, that the very basic things you learn in the military have to expand, and whether it be combat or United Nations operations. I think over time, you know, in the military, we use the term command and control, often referred to as C two.
00:03:27:16 - 00:03:56:07
Robert Fagan
And sometimes Firstrillionesponse organizations use this as well. Law enforcement. Fire emergency, medical search and rescue. But really the term C two expands into not command and control but command and coordination. And I think that is one of the important things that I learned later on in the military, whether it was in United Nations operations or in humanitarian assistance and disaster relief.
00:03:56:09 - 00:04:28:03
Robert Fagan
Some have referred to it. I know that the there are some books that refer to meta leadership, and meta leadership is a great way to describe it. When you don't own everything that needs to be brought to bear on the crisis problem. Then you are using meta leadership. And whenever we see community leaders that are convincing, that are having meetings that are coordinating, they're not telling and directing.
00:04:28:05 - 00:04:51:24
Robert Fagan
And I think that's a a misapplication of leadership as well. And you can pick a symbol, whether it's a fire captain or somebody else standing on the hood of a vehicle and shouting out orders. Sometimes we have a tendency to think, oh, that's leadership. Somebody who's at the top of a pyramid and sends down orders to a chain of command, and then that organization follows it.
00:04:52:01 - 00:05:16:11
Robert Fagan
That's a very simplistic way to look at a lot of leadership challenges in emergency management, because rarely are the challenges like that. So my experience in the United States Army at, at more senior levels taught me to coordinate, taught me to try and understand. Trout taught me to bring in diverse groups that are being affected by the situations.
00:05:16:13 - 00:05:38:02
Robert Fagan
You cannot you should not impose on a community solutions without having that community's input. For example. And so I think really the important thing is this whole concept of meta leadership. How do you lead? How do you coordinate organizations that either don't belong to you or that you've just met in the crisis? And how do you get these things done?
00:05:38:04 - 00:05:41:05
Robert Fagan
I hope that's a good start to the answer on that question.
00:05:41:07 - 00:05:55:07
Kyle King
Yeah, it is absolutely. Thanks for that. And I think it also highlights that there's a lot of discussion around leadership in various forms and formats, and from the business aspect to general sort of organizational leadership and organizational change.
00:05:55:09 - 00:05:56:05
Robert Fagan
And how do you.
00:05:56:08 - 00:06:12:07
Kyle King
At least in your view, how are you setting apart the topic of crisis leadership or leadership during crisis, apart from just a general leadership principles that we see pretty prevalent through the books and the webinars and the social media these days.
00:06:12:09 - 00:06:38:15
Robert Fagan
Leadership is hard, and I'm not trying to make it easy or oversimplify it with this discussion. And if you're the manager of a store or you're leading a farm, or you are a Faith-Based leader, all those things are very difficult to accomplish. The things that you're trying to accomplish. And there are, as you just alluded to, there are rooms and rooms full of books and dissertation things about leadership.
00:06:38:17 - 00:07:09:07
Robert Fagan
But I think we can give crisis leadership in its own category and therefore start to study it. So we can be better at it. And I believe some things do, said crisis leadership. Apart from, let's just call it regular leadership. And that is in crisis leadership by definition. You're always working in a suboptimal environment. There are very few crises that happen at 9:00 on Monday morning after you've had your first cappuccino, and everything is just perfect for you to get started on it.
00:07:09:09 - 00:07:36:04
Robert Fagan
So it will be unexpected. It'll be in a suboptimal environment when you are least expecting it. There will be time pressure for it to make decisions. You do not have a lot of time, often for deliberation, because literally the clock is ticking on whether it is damage to life, limb, property in the environment, something is going on bad and you have to reach towards incident stabilization as quickly as possible.
00:07:36:06 - 00:08:02:12
Robert Fagan
Somebody needs to make decisions. It could be you or it could be a group that you've convened. But decision making has to take place. There's no real room for lots and lots of deliberation, although the more people you can involve in a decision, the better the outcome. But nonetheless, this is not an environment that favors long deliberation or committee work, or getting back after another meeting a week later.
00:08:02:13 - 00:08:28:20
Robert Fagan
That's not it. That's let's get things done now. You're also operating in an incomplete information environment. We use these terms like common operating picture and situational awareness whatever terms you want to use. You have to have a way to get the best information possible. And the first information is always incomplete. But so you will be working with incomplete information almost always.
00:08:28:22 - 00:08:48:01
Robert Fagan
So you have to find a way to get the best information you can. And maybe it's only 6,070%. I know a lot of people are very uncomfortable operating in that environment and making decisions, because we all want 100% of the information, but that's just not good to be true. During a crisis, because there are ever changing priorities, ever changing conditions.
00:08:48:03 - 00:09:03:02
Robert Fagan
And it's really hard to keep up with, but you still have to work through it to get Ahold of it. And so I think the awareness of those things is what helps us study and understand crisis leadership as opposed to general leadership.
00:09:03:04 - 00:09:25:00
Kyle King
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. I think that there's it's interesting, when you look at it from that perspective that you just presented because you're faced with a, you know, worst case scenario, complete uncertainty. You don't control the outcome. So in many cases, like in a business perspective, if you're leaders in a business or in a a CEO position, one of the cases you can drive company vision, goals, metrics and then you can drive towards that.
00:09:25:02 - 00:09:41:11
Kyle King
So those sort of outcomes and you react to the actions that you're taking. But in the in crisis leadership you're basically have no control that external environment. You're reacting to external stimuli and what's happening around you and external events. At the same time you have a time compression. So it's not that I need to deliver something in three months or six months.
00:09:41:11 - 00:10:05:04
Kyle King
It's I need to deliver something immediately. Solutions. And then absolutely. To your point, the added so the lack of locus of control so to speak, and then the time compression and then the added stress that goes along with that forces people into, sort of very difficult positions in terms of leadership. But at the same time, the characteristics that are coming out for people is needing to be comfortable in that space.
00:10:05:04 - 00:10:27:21
Kyle King
I think is one of the biggest aspects to that. And then what I have found, and I want to unpack a couple things with you. What I have found is working internationally has given me a lot of perspective, and it's in fact one of the reasons why we wanted to form Crisis Lab is because these international perspectives are so valuable, just in understanding how people operate and how communities operate in different conditions and environments.
00:10:27:23 - 00:10:51:08
Kyle King
And really got me outside my own mind and outside my own box in terms of understanding how things work. So first, let's unpack that a bit, because you also have extensive experience working internationally, both with the military on the civilian sector as well. How has that shaped your view of leadership? And then we can talk about what do we see in the future, but how has international exposure and these tackling global issues and international perspectives?
00:10:51:08 - 00:10:54:19
Kyle King
How has that shaped your perception of what leadership is?
00:10:54:21 - 00:11:19:17
Robert Fagan
It has shaped it a great deal. And I thank you for bringing this up and giving your own examples. Any time you work with another nation, another community, another religion, another culture, another language that is not your own. It's a fabulous opportunity for learning and growth. And we all come from a background. My background happens to be from the middle of the United States.
00:11:19:19 - 00:11:45:14
Robert Fagan
And so armed with understanding your own background, it has limitations. And so bringing in the perspectives of other people to a problem is, I think, one of the most important aspects of trying to solve those problems, because you're not going to be able to solve them alone, and you're not going to be able to solve them with only one tool or one concept of thinking.
00:11:45:16 - 00:12:19:21
Robert Fagan
And so I think the what has shaped my leadership in this regard, in working with other countries is making sure that the other countries and the other communities are involved. And just saying that is complicated, because if you're working with locally elected officials, there are political party understandings and misunderstandings. If you're working with a community that has more than 1 or 2 local religions, then there are understandings that come with that as well.
00:12:19:23 - 00:12:49:04
Robert Fagan
Who's being served? Which community? Why? Why are you giving out food and logistics support to this community and not this other community in a resource constrained environment? All of these things add to your leadership toolkit and just trying to understand problem resolution, and then not only surviving, but thriving. On the other end of this, you're trying to also maintain the community's balance of resilience.
00:12:49:04 - 00:13:16:15
Robert Fagan
And it's some disasters are so large that you will never return to normal, quote unquote. But you can do the best that you can. And when we say whole community approach, that is really worth thinking through in someone else's environment of what is the whole community here, right? Has everyone truly been included in the outcome? And I mean, they're from all ages, genders, backgrounds.
00:13:16:15 - 00:13:48:07
Robert Fagan
And so these are things to think through in helping communities solve the problems. And I just mentioned the the last part that is the most important. You're helping a community solving a problem. And you're not solving the problem for them. And that is slightly contrary to how the military does a lot of business. And so that's another aspect of thinking outside the box in terms of understanding that the community you're supporting has to be involved in the outcome, has to be involved in that incident resolution.
00:13:48:09 - 00:14:08:17
Robert Fagan
It has to be involved in the decision making because it's not your community, it's their community. And so I think those are some of the leadership aspects of multicultural operations and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief that I've had the tremendous fortune to be able to pick up along the way.
00:14:08:19 - 00:14:24:05
Kyle King
Hey there. Just a quick pause in our show for a second. Did you know that most of our guests on the podcast have courses inside of Crisis Lab? If you're finding value in these conversations, or they pique your interest and you want to dive deeper into the topics we're discussing, just head over to Crisis Lab IO for more information.
00:14:24:06 - 00:14:43:23
Kyle King
Our courses, webinars, and resources are all designed to equip professionals like you with the knowledge needed to navigate complex and changing environments, and we recognize that your time matters, so everything we do is accredited. Don't forget to subscribe and join our community of over 17,000 professionals who follow Crisis Lab and are committed to enhancing preparedness and strategic thinking.
00:14:44:04 - 00:15:16:10
Kyle King
Because a crisis lab, we believe in empowering you with cross-domain learning and knowledge. Blended with international perspectives, ultimately making you better every single day. Now let's get back to the show. One of the things that I observe in international missions, and especially in specifically to your point about git jittering in understanding and understanding the communities and the environments is when we're working in our own nation, we tend to have a view to a certain extent, that it's us and then damn across the table.
00:15:16:12 - 00:15:40:10
Kyle King
We are part of the community that we're operating in, that we're working in, that we are responsible for. One of the things I found most valuable about international work was that you're not part of the community, so you're almost coming in with a subjective sort of voice and you're like, okay, I now have these people from a community, and it allows you to elevate some of these characteristics that you've talked about in the course in Crisis Lab.
00:15:40:10 - 00:15:56:17
Kyle King
In terms of now, you're not you're objectively bringing forth the fact that we need to communicate more effectively. Just as an example, off the top of my head, right. And so then you're drawing out specific things of what are the key issues, how can we get to the key problems. And you're not attached to either side of this.
00:15:56:17 - 00:16:13:19
Kyle King
So you're by working internationally, you're able to detach yourself from us versus them. And you become a broker between communities. And so you're able to have an objective view, and you're able to then bring out more objective qualities of leadership and apply them in almost a case study type of format, just to see how things work in it.
00:16:13:21 - 00:16:33:21
Kyle King
For me, that was extremely helpful because that's, to me, at least in my experience, has been where I learned the most. Because you get almost a science and the application of these theories, and you look at it from this perspective of objective perspective in this environment, and you're able to see how it influences negotiations and discussions or whatever the case, whatever the program you're working on.
00:16:33:23 - 00:16:55:20
Kyle King
And that that really comes into another question. I haven't and of course would love to have your feedback on that. But so you've obviously in your career, you've been through many programs which focus on leadership and crisis management and everything else. But one of the aspects that we often see is are often theoretical or academic. And so how are we and how has your experience been in terms of transforming what you're learning and to the real world environment as well?
00:16:56:00 - 00:17:38:04
Robert Fagan
You know, I think the important thing is that as an emergency manager or someone who works in this space, because it's not just emergency management, it's public health, it's, community leadership. There's a lot of overlap with lots of things working here and someone working in that space. I think we always have to accept humility, no matter how high our position or how many years of experience we have, because there's always more to learn and so I think everyone working in this space has to be a serial training and education person that is constantly taking courses, reading books, looking at webinars, looking at all the thousands of people around the world that are also working
00:17:38:04 - 00:18:06:19
Robert Fagan
in this space and looking at their good ideas. And this helps put theory into practice and take advantage of what others have learned through, quite frankly, blood, sweat and tears. But in most of these experiences, whenever you're learning something, taking a course or webinar, many take into account key studies, which is always marvelous. So these provide frameworks of response and planning, discussing what went well and what one can improve upon for the future.
00:18:06:21 - 00:18:33:13
Robert Fagan
And I think that's what's important to continue to learn to be a lifelong learner. And I don't mean necessarily getting more advanced degrees necessarily. There's a lot. And I also am not suggesting that people should spend a lot of money on this, although you can spend some money in different areas to promote yourself and to give yourself a good professional development background in these areas, you're never going to be finished.
00:18:33:13 - 00:18:45:06
Robert Fagan
And the thing that you took five years ago while is it obsolete, needs to be updated. So I think those are the critical things about learning in this space. If that was helpful.
00:18:45:08 - 00:19:03:19
Kyle King
Yeah, it is, and I'm sure we never really stop learning. At least I haven't. And in terms of the if we're looking more towards the future and we're starting to see the role of leadership, and we've used the term before in terms of strategic sort of crisis leadership. And what we're observing today at the time that we're recording this podcast is we're seeing a very interesting dynamic developing.
00:19:03:19 - 00:19:25:06
Kyle King
And we were mentioning this and talking about it before we hit the record button and more of the nuances of strategic crisis leadership. And so we first are working in how we shaped our sort of conversation and acceptance and of that of the fact that we're getting in into, in the world is evolving into more complex crisis. And so it's and it's also continual crisis in some form or function.
00:19:25:07 - 00:19:54:00
Kyle King
You can look recently at the cyber attacks on public health care facilities in Sweden and everywhere else recently, and then we're starting to see a more of a European acknowledgment that we need to prepare for war. For example, at the time of this recording, there's been multiple announcements by European leaders. The fact that the European continent needs to prepare for war and for in fact, it was the European Council president which said just a couple of days ago that the Europe needs to prepare for war.
00:19:54:00 - 00:20:17:12
Kyle King
And so this terminology is coming out. We're seeing it coming out of administrative defenses, and we're seeing even the German and Germany, the Ministry of Education said. I think it was just yesterday in which was that we need to bring back preparedness training and education and as a school system. And so that obviously is a shift in the way that we're thinking about communities, about resilience and preparedness.
00:20:17:14 - 00:20:47:24
Kyle King
It's a drawing back and then going back to an era which is long gone, which civil defense and what that means now in today's world. And so there's an aspect of leadership in of itself that I'd like to get your thoughts on, because it's having to stand there and then try and change the culture of preparedness and recognizing a complex threat landscape and what it means in the future, and then trying to get people to evolve from a very peacetime preparedness community like we've long had, and in emergency management, which is like prepare and respond and recover.
00:20:47:24 - 00:21:05:17
Kyle King
And that's all we do into an era of a complex and continuous crisis. And there's some key leadership aspects there, and I would love to hear your thoughts about how do we integrate principles of leadership in terms of communicating these new threats and risk, which are going to be, I would almost say, countercultural to what we've been taught for the last 20 years.
00:21:05:19 - 00:21:30:01
Robert Fagan
Yeah. Thank you. I it requires somewhat of a historical perspective to analyze these problems, and I'll just share my own personal story with you that I spent my first Christmas Eve in the United States Army in a tower, relieving one of my soldiers, the watching Czechs watch me during the Cold War. And then within a couple of years, the Soviet Union was dissolved.
00:21:30:03 - 00:21:55:00
Robert Fagan
And quickly people said there will never be another ground war in Europe, and we can start divesting ourselves of all this equipment and all these organizations, because this is all over and it will never happen again. And yet here we are right now, and we had even other conflicts in the 90s as well, and that are still simmering and other things, but they're vastly smaller now.
00:21:55:00 - 00:22:11:06
Robert Fagan
But they're still on the continent of Europe. And if we can think about the culture of preparedness, it's not just war. But now we are definitely thinking about that. I think that when you look at preparedness writ large, whether it's.
00:22:11:06 - 00:22:12:02
Kyle King
A house fire.
00:22:12:03 - 00:22:47:21
Robert Fagan
Or whether it's a hurricane or an earthquake, a right along with conflagration and war, these are things that citizens need to be prepared for. We have had the luxury over the course of the last hundred, 150 years to start outsourcing safety and security to other organizations. The more our law enforcement, fire and emergency medical and search and rescue personnel, teams and equipment become highly professionalized, organized, and actually paid services, then we get to not think about those things.
00:22:47:23 - 00:23:16:09
Robert Fagan
And so that's one issue, right? As you just used the term counterculture, it's countercultural that no one's coming to get me if I have a problem. But yet in a very large incident, not just war, but in a large incident like a big hurricane or earthquake, you know, but no one's coming to get you necessarily, because all those services and entities are overwhelmed because you'll never have enough and you can never pay for enough to be on staff.
00:23:16:11 - 00:23:59:14
Robert Fagan
And so really, I think the issue is building culture. The preparedness starts with individuals within an organization, be it a community or a company or a public sector organization, and there has to be direct leadership involvement in the individual in employee or citizen and their families preparedness. Because work units, towns, neighborhoods cannot be prepared unless individuals within that into an organization are prepared and therefore large companies, communities, states, organizations can't be prepared unless those sub units are prepared.
00:23:59:16 - 00:24:32:10
Robert Fagan
So really it all starts with the individual. And it also then the leadership aspect of this starts building momentum at the lowest fundamental level, which is leaders of families, leaders of faith based organizations, leaders of neighborhoods, towns and communities have to look at their threats and hazards, take them seriously, and have the kid do what it takes to have the community take it seriously and individuals to take it seriously, because you can have all the most fantastic plans, investment and resources in the world.
00:24:32:12 - 00:24:38:07
Robert Fagan
But none of it's going to work unless you have individual citizen involvement.
00:24:38:09 - 00:24:59:17
Kyle King
It's certainly very interesting in terms of a discussion, because the more we try to wrap our head around the complex sort of threat landscape in a changing security climate, the more that we go back down to the community level, the more that we go back down to a family level and your neighbors and things like that in terms of the foundational aspects of resilience.
00:24:59:19 - 00:25:20:16
Kyle King
And so it's extremely interesting in terms of how more complex things get that the solution is at the end, as you mentioned, the individual and the family and community level. My I find that very ironic because we went through this period of there's solutions for everything and this is a new software platform, or integrate 5G or enhance all communications, and then it's not.
00:25:20:16 - 00:25:28:10
Kyle King
And then the solution, it's only a it's only a tool and a tool kit, but the actual solution is on individual responsibility. At the end of the day.
00:25:28:12 - 00:26:00:05
Robert Fagan
Yeah. And and adding to that, I think there's a proclivity around the world for people to think that governments always come save them. And we have to get out of the mindset of this is the either local, state, prefecture, district, national government responsibility to come save us. They can provide a lot of organization and a lot of planning and a lot of things on the macro level, but at the end of the day, you just can't sit there and shrug your shoulders and say, where's my government?
00:26:00:07 - 00:26:02:15
Robert Fagan
You have to do things for yourself.
00:26:02:17 - 00:26:20:10
Kyle King
And I think to a certain extent that we created that environment. Right. And so because we were in a period of peace and because we were in a period of where that was the case where you could realistically say economically and viably that the, the specifically like in the US, for example, FEMA will come, BMO will rebuild, we will do these things now and then.
00:26:20:10 - 00:26:43:22
Kyle King
It's gradually we're creeping away from that. It's 24 hours, then it's 72 hours, then it's a week and then it's two weeks. And then you see the incremental drawback of commitment, which I think illustrates the point. And what we were talking about today, just overall and emphasizing the need for, for leadership to, to be out in front and to say that what you exactly like, what you're saying, like the world is changing, the climate is changing.
00:26:43:22 - 00:26:57:18
Kyle King
It's very resource driven. We're simply not going to be there when you think it's going to be there, but also to take the strong stance that we need to have programs that help educate people, to bring them up to speed, to prepare communities for a very worst case scenario.
00:26:57:20 - 00:27:27:19
Robert Fagan
Absolutely. And then what you just discussed, at least in terms of the case study for the United States, there's a disingenuous part to that, which is our disaster recovery and disaster response. Funding is based on being overwhelmed. And so when a town can express to the county or the state that it's overwhelmed, then they can get funding. So it's always it behooves everybody to push this problem up even.
00:27:27:19 - 00:27:42:10
Robert Fagan
And then when the state is overwhelmed, it pushes it up to the federal government, generally through FEMA. So there's a disingenuous backwards part of this where people are encouraged to talk to the next higher level of government to get funding.
00:27:42:12 - 00:27:51:24
Kyle King
Yeah. Very interesting. And as well that we set the bar so high that it's either complete, decimate before you get help or nothing. So it is zero sum game, right. It's all or nothing.
00:27:52:05 - 00:28:11:20
Robert Fagan
Yeah. So local politicians are always encouraged to get funding from by buck rather than use their own funding initially. Right. Which which hinders response time which hinders organization because that's the backward system that we've put in place. And we've just got to get away from that mindset.
00:28:11:22 - 00:28:30:13
Kyle King
I agree, and as we last question is, as we unpacked a lot here, not just on the last 30, 40 minutes or so, if somebody were wanting to really be more effective and their leadership role during a crisis before crisis and things like that, what are some of the key takeaways or advice that you'd want to share from your experience?
00:28:30:15 - 00:29:16:08
Robert Fagan
I would say I think the biggest thing to be more effective organizationally in the emergency management, public health safety arena is that as a a senior strategic crisis leader, if you can put that hat on in your own role, wherever you are at today, I would say that the biggest thing is that organizationally, we have a tendency to organize for emergency management within the cycle that we've all seen where there's an impact of something, some type of emergency or disaster, and therefore response and recovery in our mind and in our funding, get the lion's share of attention and resources.
00:29:16:10 - 00:29:41:15
Robert Fagan
So we have the impact, and then we respond, because people identify with seeing police cars and fire trucks and ambulances, and they understand that's what emergency responses. And then of course, there's recovery, rebuilding schools and homes and things like that. So response and recovery get all the attention of this conversation. But I think is senior strategic crisis leaders.
00:29:41:17 - 00:30:10:10
Robert Fagan
We have to think through really the need to plan strategically for mitigation, prevention, preparedness and protection. Those are unexciting things. Yet those are really what's going to save us because through these actions, we can save lives, prevent injuries, save property and the environment. We can lessen the impact and the duration of a disaster or any crisis while speeding recovery.
00:30:10:12 - 00:30:13:24
Robert Fagan
If we get the first part right, I completely agree.
00:30:14:01 - 00:30:25:24
Kyle King
So that's all the time that we have for today. So again, a huge thanks to our guest, Mr. Robert Fagan, for joining us and sharing his knowledge and experience as we discuss leadership during crisis. Rob, thanks for joining us.
00:30:26:01 - 00:30:28:03
Robert Fagan
Thank you. Appreciate being here.
00:30:28:05 - 00:30:45:13
Kyle King
That's all the time we have for today. And again, huge thanks to our guest, Mr. Robert Fagan, for sharing his knowledge and experience as we discuss leadership during crisis. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the crisis led podcast. We hope that today's episode has provided you with new insights and perspectives to better navigate the challenges of your field.
00:30:45:15 - 00:31:13:24
Kyle King
Remember, each episode is a step toward mastering the complexities of crisis management, and we're here to share that knowledge and support you along the way. If you're not subscribed already, head over to or your preferred platform. Hit subscribe and keep up to date with our latest episodes, whether that's on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or even on YouTube. For more resources and to become part of the 17,000 professionals following Crisis Lab, head over to crisis IO and make sure you follow us on social media such as LinkedIn and YouTube.
00:31:14:01 - 00:31:36:24
Kyle King
And lastly, have you heard about our All Access Pass? It's the opportunity to lock in your pricing for 2024, and you'll get 20 accredited courses released during the year, along with ten key U.S. and NATO certificate. If you attend the NATO Crisis Management and Disaster Response Course to lock in your costs now, sign up for the All Access Pass and do it quick before the prices go up every single year.
00:31:37:01 - 00:31:42:07
Kyle King
Until next time, stay prepared, stay resilient, and let's continue to make a difference together. Thanks for listening.
