00:00:00:02 - 00:00:28:12
Tim Lannan
So some of the challenges we've had is that when we do see a crisis that Natal wants to respond to, we don't have that time for that dialog between what military capacities we have and options we have that could assist. And the political side wants something visible and with immediate effect and where the military is during, you know, really deliberate type planning and the the political side wants quick decisions.
00:00:28:14 - 00:00:59:21
Tim Lannan
Quite often we have political decisions that are taken that don't really match with the capacity and the options the military was thinking about. So the importance of the civil military aspect is that we need those early discussions with the civilian side and understanding what the military has in their capability toolbox and understand what the political side wants to deliver, which is something, as I mentioned, visible with immediate effect.
00:00:59:23 - 00:01:26:13
Kyle King
Hello and welcome to the Crisis Conflict Emergency Management Podcast on Call and they'll be your host. And in today's episode we'll be exploring the SEB mail planning domain and disaster response with insights from Mr. Tim Lennon, our expert in the field, and previously the head of NATO's Euro-Atlantic Disaster Response Coordination Center, the center, which is NATO's principal Civil emergency response Mechanism, is responsible for NATO's response to disasters in the Euro Atlantic area, while managing 31 allied and 37 partner nations actions.
00:01:26:13 - 00:01:46:11
Kyle King
It also serves as a coordination of with other international positions, including the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and the World Food Program, as well as the World Health Organization. So today we will discuss that experience with them as well as the lessons of perspectives on international cooperation and civil planning, especially as it applies to disasters and marches.
00:01:46:11 - 00:01:48:00
Kyle King
So, Tim, thanks for joining us today.
00:01:48:05 - 00:01:51:16
Tim Lannan
Thank you very much for having me on this podcast.
00:01:51:18 - 00:02:14:14
Kyle King
It's really great to have you here because I think this is one of those domains that's going to become increasingly important as we have more complex emergencies, climate changes, climate security issues and disasters that start to border upon sort of or encroach upon sort of national security issues. Right. And so I think the world is becoming more complex and the military is being a real capability that nations can rely on.
00:02:14:14 - 00:02:25:21
Kyle King
So I think this is going to be a relevant and important topic. But let's start off with a really easy question, which is sort of civil planning domain. What does that mean to you coming from an international organization like NATO's?
00:02:26:00 - 00:03:01:02
Tim Lannan
Okay, that's a good question. And you're exactly right. The world is becoming more complex. We're seeing increased number of disasters on an escalating pace and the civilian capacity is being overwhelmed itself. So naturally, at a national level, more and more militaries are being used to respond to disasters in emergency situations, as in their nation themselves. But when it comes to the international level, we see, you know, we have the ISO guidelines which military assets could be used, should be used as a last resort.
00:03:01:02 - 00:03:33:01
Tim Lannan
But, you know, with no one else there. Austin Now, the military is the only resort and we're moving towards how do we put the civil and the military together where the civilians are, the professionals in the disaster response, the military, that's not their core business. They're normally defending their nation's security. However, we need to understand each other in this space and civil planning is a combination or a amalgamation of the two organizations.
00:03:33:01 - 00:04:01:02
Tim Lannan
Are the two domains coming together towards a similar objectives, And that is, you know, primarily in a disaster response. It's relieves the suffering and help the affected people. So the organization itself, I joined Natal in 2007 and the civil planning aspect was becoming more important because we were involved in Afghanistan. A lot of the civilian development actors, the humanitarian assistance, the governance actors, they were not present.
00:04:01:02 - 00:04:24:21
Tim Lannan
So the military had to take on those roles themselves. And we seen the provincial Reconstruction teams and that is where we expanded into some stabilization, reconstruction activities and government advising, which isn't necessarily a military aspect. But when we take a look at the big picture, the military and the civilians have to work together to come to those end objectives.
00:04:24:21 - 00:04:34:12
Tim Lannan
So making sure those objectives are aligned and making sure we have the right tools in place to have some sort of impact. In effect, at the end of the day.
00:04:34:14 - 00:05:07:01
Kyle King
I'm glad that you mentioned that it in some cases the military is often perceived, I guess, as almost being a first responder in some nations because let's say in some Western nations, if not most Western nations, as you mentioned, the use of military resources as a last resort during disasters and humanitarian situations. Obviously, however, in some nations, because the funding of the security architecture, like the military, is the greatest resource that they have, comparatively speaking, like fire departments are significantly underinvested and underdeveloped.
00:05:07:05 - 00:05:25:02
Kyle King
And so I think we lack the appreciation in many domains, especially if you're coming from big nations like the United States or Canada and others, where you can reserve military capability as a last resort. But in many smaller nations, we don't have the budget, the depth of manpower, personnel, public safety, infrastructure. The military is a capability you have to deploy.
00:05:25:08 - 00:05:30:09
Kyle King
And sometimes people might be surprised that that happens on a daily basis in many different nations.
00:05:30:14 - 00:06:08:06
Tim Lannan
Exactly. And we have many of our partner nations who is actually uniformed civilians as responding to these disasters. You know, state emergency services, they're uniformed people. So they have an institution similar to the military. They're wearing uniform, but they're not in the security domain itself. But in today's environment, security is all interconnected with, you know, the climate, the economic all of these other domains that are important to not just national security, but, for instance, disaster that overwhelms a nation can become a security issue.
00:06:08:06 - 00:06:29:03
Tim Lannan
So the uniform is always a good identifier for the military when we come into this space. But we can't forget there's also civilians that wear while they're uniformed. And I don't know whether you call the military or not, but they're institutional folks that come to the aid of a nation, their own nation, when it comes to disaster response.
00:06:29:05 - 00:07:00:00
Kyle King
So as we establish I mean, and we start this discussion, we are talking about a changing and more complex world that we're responding in and sort of the risks and the hazards and different profiles are changing, which forces us to reconsider our resource allocation, the use of resources to respond to disasters. What are some of these challenges that you've seen in your time, both with NATO's outside of NATO's just from your sort of professional background in that civil domain, what are some of the challenges that you're seeing today that we're dealing with in terms of, you know, possibly resource constraints?
00:07:00:00 - 00:07:03:09
Kyle King
One of the cases in the civil domain, what are the issues? What are the obstacles.
00:07:03:09 - 00:07:33:06
Tim Lannan
Here, some of the challenges and I'll speak from the Natal perspective itself. You know, a needle is a political military organization, primarily Ministry of defense infested. A But what happens is these decisions that are being made are not taken by the Ministry of Defense. So the decisions to deploy assistance to another nation, they are, you know, primarily planned for organized by other ministries and then decided upon by the ministries of foreign affairs.
00:07:33:11 - 00:07:57:10
Tim Lannan
So when it comes to the decision making at Natal, there are a number of layers that we need to go through the Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and then we have to also ensure that we're not making duplicative efforts of other organizations. So what we need to do as a military is bring our comparative advantage and our comparative advantage from a military perspective is the logistics.
00:07:57:12 - 00:08:28:15
Tim Lannan
Now the largest scale planning and coordination and the responsiveness for most militaries anyway, military can respond quite rapidly. But when it comes to an aid organization, when there's decisions to be made, that response is inhibited by the natal crisis management process and the crisis management process. We go through a number of checks and balances to ensure we have political control from all nations and political control over the military from that perspective.
00:08:28:18 - 00:08:52:02
Tim Lannan
But then what are we doing as an alliance? So some nations will bilaterally send military or uniformed personnel to a disaster, but then what do we want to do as Natal? And a lot of the challenges are the political decision making at Natal, whether we're going to respond to a disaster. Quite often it becomes political, you know, whether we're going to respond or not.
00:08:52:02 - 00:09:15:13
Tim Lannan
I see this in a different scale because there's two ways the Euro-Atlantic Disaster Response Coordination Center can be activated. One is a request from a partner or an ally, and they will essentially self activates itself. We do not have to go through council decision making if it's a normal request for assistance that they're looking for, you know, firefighting equipment, tents, blankets.
00:09:15:13 - 00:09:55:11
Tim Lannan
But if there is going to be consideration of military boots on the ground from a natal perspective, this will take a a natal decision, a political decision and the North Atlantic Council. So some of the challenges we've had is that when we do see a crisis that Natal wants to respond to, we don't have that time for that dialog between what military capacities we have and options we have that could assist and the political side once something visible and with immediate effect and where the military is doing really deliberate type planning and the the political side wants quick decisions.
00:09:55:13 - 00:10:25:02
Tim Lannan
Quite often we have political decisions that are taken that don't really match with the capacity and the options the military was thinking about. So the importance of the civil military aspect is that we need those early discussions with the civilian side and understanding what the military has in their capability toolbox and understand what the political side wants to deliver, which is something, as I mentioned, visible with immediate effect.
00:10:25:04 - 00:10:52:14
Tim Lannan
But we have to you know, when Natal says they're going to deliver something, we need to deliver, and that's all because we stand with all our allies and we assist all our partners when need is there. So one of the biggest challenges, just to reiterate, is the decision making process on whether we deploy military assets or military function and whether those the political early discussions that need to take place between the civilian actors.
00:10:52:14 - 00:11:16:23
Tim Lannan
Because when we deploy, we don't just deploy in isolation. We consult with the United Nations UNASUR, we consult with the European Union's Emergency Response Coordination Center. We do not want duplicate of that. We do also respond or consult with the with the stricken nation because it's important to one understand if they want military assets assisting them in the disaster.
00:11:16:23 - 00:11:46:23
Tim Lannan
And we need to ensure that our capacities meet their needs. And if they don't, you know, we've got to slow the decision making down at Natal and educate those decision makers that this may not be the right tool for the job and hopefully we can come to some sort of an understanding of what Natal could do to assist because at the end of the day, Natal wants to be invisibly assisting one of their allies or partners that is in need of assistance.
00:11:46:23 - 00:12:04:09
Kyle King
I'd like to break that down a little bit more because there's three sort of areas which I think are really important to hit upon, which is first is the decision making culture between organizations and said civil domains, which can often be very different as anybody who's worked in any of those domains or interact with each other can, can understand.
00:12:04:11 - 00:12:23:11
Kyle King
And you've also highlighted here, which is the military has a very deliberate planning process and there's on a, say, a civilian or even a political level, As you mentioned, there's a de expedited rationale to have in effect and be visible. Right. And so you want these things to be in place and to do it quickly. And if the military has a plan for it, then quickly is often not an option.
00:12:23:11 - 00:12:43:24
Kyle King
So this is where there's an interesting challenge to manage and expectation management in terms of these decision making cultures. But I think it's, you know, the alliance itself and Natal is not the only one that has that. I mean, if we look at recently the the fires in Hawaii and sort of look at how that was managed, the use of the National Guard and others and sort of what decision making was happening there.
00:12:44:01 - 00:13:05:03
Kyle King
In this case, it's almost a little bit of a reverse situation because there wasn't the complexities and the escalation at an international level like where Natal would get involved. But at a local level, it's the civilians wanting to make a decision. They're leading that response effort, their leading that disaster relief effort. And at the same time, when and where should they use military capabilities to support that, when then it's the same effect that's happening.
00:13:05:03 - 00:13:25:23
Kyle King
But I want to say a community scale because and it's back to what are their capabilities, what do they have to offer, What can they bring to the table? Obviously, logistics and simply, you know, manpower is a huge one, especially in terms of, say, flooding, for example. So I think these are shared challenges. You know, whether you're talking about a community level and community leaders or if you're even talking about large international organizations like Natal.
00:13:25:23 - 00:13:52:15
Tim Lannan
Yeah. And the decision making process at Natal is slow. It's meant for military operation. It's meant for, you know, the collective defense idea. And it is intended to give people time to think about second and third order effects and so on and so forth. So the decision making process in Natal, just for a normal tracing, there's six decision points in the process.
00:13:52:15 - 00:14:16:05
Tim Lannan
One, we have something on the horizon and then we the first decision is council says, okay, give me a, an assessment. So we'll ask the military to give an assessment. Then after the assessment, the military committee will approve that assessment and then it becomes military advice to the council. So after that, then they're tasked to provide options and they'll come up with a range of options.
00:14:16:11 - 00:14:45:17
Tim Lannan
Those options will be decided upon by council, and the council will decide what option they're leaning towards and they'll have a decision there and ask the military to develop the plan. So then the plan was actually for the plan. There's two decision points. One is a concept of operations and then another or the actual plan itself. And then that will sit on a shelf and they will take another decision when they execute that plan.
00:14:45:17 - 00:15:13:02
Tim Lannan
So that's just the planning process itself. It's cumbersome, but in these emergency situations we have learned how to expedite those processes. But in a number of our most recent crises, everyone knows, you know, we went through COVID, we went through the Afghanistan evacuation, we went through Ukraine, we went through Turkey earthquake, we went through all of those. There was no military assessment that turned into military advance.
00:15:13:02 - 00:15:34:18
Tim Lannan
So we jumped all the way to the end. And the council pretty much decided on what to do, what to deliver. The military was having to plan with the decisions, but not knowing whether they had the capacity or whether it was the right tool for the job. So to get it out of the the military assessment and planning process, that's our biggest challenge.
00:15:34:20 - 00:15:58:17
Tim Lannan
So Will there is something on the horizon? The early discussions between the political side and the military side has to really be, you know, joined up so well so that we don't put a decision in front of 31 allies and say, military, go execute this plan. It doesn't necessarily help the affected people, but it's something that NATO's doing.
00:15:58:17 - 00:16:07:18
Tim Lannan
So it becomes very frustrating for those of us working in that space when we deliver something where we know we could have delivered something better.
00:16:07:18 - 00:16:29:22
Kyle King
And it's interesting from the perspective that you're mentioning, because this is not just an international organization thing. This is also in every sort of community and larger organization that you have to have these continued conversations about probabilities and risks and hazards and and making contingency plans and everything that goes along with that because it's just it has to be an ongoing conversation.
00:16:29:22 - 00:16:50:12
Kyle King
And I think the climate is changing, not climate climate, but I think the environment is changing in terms of where this is becoming a little bit more recognized. But I still feel like in many cases there's this idea of a plan on the shelf and we've already done our job and we checked the box and many organizations and many communities and you see that it's evident in the failure of response in many, many disasters.
00:16:50:12 - 00:17:22:13
Kyle King
The other point that you mentioned was also duplication of effort. And this is always a big deal. And every type of large humanity relief or disaster response effort, duplication of effort is extremely challenging. And if I just look at examples of like Hurricane Katrina, right, and these large scale hurricanes that are happening even in the States every year, and then all the volunteer resources coming in, things you don't even ask for, and then you have all this junk essentially that comes in and you have to, you know, the local government and the state level, they have to find a way to manage this.
00:17:22:13 - 00:17:42:17
Kyle King
The sheer amount of duplication of effort and unnecessary items that you get. So this is something that is a huge challenge. And what are some of the observations you've had in trying to manage duplication of effort, especially as you mentioned in an international context? You know, nations can do what they want first and then maybe they want to go through the EU or then maybe they want to go to the UN or nado.
00:17:42:19 - 00:18:06:20
Tim Lannan
We'll get a better for it is every time we get into a large committee, particularly in the council, the North Atlantic Council, that is the biggest nations raised, they don't want that duplicated effort of one other organizations, but they're sitting behind their nameplates of their nationality and they don't want to be, you know, suggesting Natal can do something when they have something that they could offer regard as well.
00:18:06:20 - 00:18:30:11
Tim Lannan
So I think the idea RCC itself has been out, been an information clearinghouse. So you went, okay, you are they rely on the information that we gather from nations, we have the nations at our fingertips and I'll just give you a hypothetical. So let's say there is, you know, forest fires and okay, they want water pumps, generators, cots and blankets.
00:18:30:11 - 00:18:57:08
Tim Lannan
So we're going around and we will understand, even though the nations have not told us, we will go out and reach to them and find out what they are donating. So if, you know, they're asking for a 10,000 tents, we're not giving them 20,000 tents. So we're keeping a running total. And the UN Ocean and RCC and the use organization, they're watching these situation reports as well.
00:18:57:08 - 00:19:24:12
Tim Lannan
So, you know, we haven't been able to, you know, be 100% accurate because some nations don't respond. But we watch social media, we watch, you know, the host nation itself, what it's receiving, you know, from other organizations. So we're normally on top of that. So I give one example to people. We're always kind of ensuring that our COVID response was not duplicative with the RCC and the European Union.
00:19:24:14 - 00:19:48:02
Tim Lannan
So through 2020, we had, you know, almost daily video teleconferences, making sure, you know, we were working together. And at the end of the year, we went down our list of nations that still had open requests for assistance. We had 12 nations on our list. They had six nations on our list. And there was only two nations that were on both our list.
00:19:48:04 - 00:20:18:04
Tim Lannan
So we were covering all the nations and ensuring that, you know, one nation wasn't getting too many ventilators or, you know, too many FFP to mask. And we are making sure the nations that were receiving less goods were receiving what they needed as well. So I think there was a good effort amongst the organizations. Okay. With the EU, we had one every day and what with the United Nations, they held a VTC every week.
00:20:18:04 - 00:20:37:09
Tim Lannan
So we were in the picture of the global response as well, not just the Euro-Atlantic region. So I think we've done a fair job on making sure we were not duplicating effort. But then again, when it comes down to duplicative effort, there's times when NATO's as an institution itself wants to deliver and if and politically they need to deliver.
00:20:37:09 - 00:20:54:04
Tim Lannan
And I'm not saying that happens all the time, but there are times when they're delivering something that another organization is already handling. But it's something that Natal can offer and they want to offer that. And this is NATO's prerogative as an organization itself.
00:20:54:06 - 00:21:09:17
Kyle King
Well, sure. Now, ultimately, as with all donations or all assistance, right, it's up to that nation to accept what they're being offered. And so at the end of the day, I mean, the nation has to say yes or no about what they want to receive. And so I think that's an important point in all of that, especially in terms of duplication of effort.
00:21:09:17 - 00:21:25:05
Kyle King
And that's ideally what we would see on an international level is if that nation, as the affected nation is very good in sort of bringing all of their data points together, all the needs and requirements and putting them on a single list and sort of shopping that around to different international organizations and, you know, dividing it that way.
00:21:25:05 - 00:21:43:20
Kyle King
I mean, if you need I don't know, for example, health items, you go to the World Health Organization and say, what do we get? What can you fill? And if you can't fill that, I'm going to go somewhere else. And so the affected nation bears that responsibility, in my view, to a large extent, because, I mean, you can't accept everything and nor would you want to, Then you end up with like 4 million pairs of socks for no reason or whatever the case is.
00:21:43:20 - 00:22:15:03
Tim Lannan
It's a good example. But yet, you know yourself and sometimes the host nation or the stricken nation is totally overwhelmed and it's very hard for them to keep track. And response to Ukraine was challenged because there was multiple ministries requesting assistance to Natal. So it wasn't just one single point of contact in Ukraine, it was multiple ministries. So we became the broker and understood what was being required, requested from the nation itself and sharing that with other nations.
00:22:15:05 - 00:22:21:01
Tim Lannan
So this was our biggest challenge during the Ukraine crisis, and it still is today.
00:22:21:01 - 00:22:42:06
Kyle King
And that's one of the interesting things because you see that in many different levels, especially if you work internationally and a lot of the work that we do, which is, you know, especially in these countries that, hey, say, for example, have a higher dependency upon the military structures too, or, you know, response activities, you'll see multiple times. So in the military mindset, you know, you have one single chain of command.
00:22:42:06 - 00:22:57:18
Kyle King
You need authorization, need orders to execute. There's a decision making process. It's very structured, but at the same time, at a community level, they'll getting calls from like the mayors and and others and saying, well, you're just right here. Help us with this flood response. You know, we need somebody now. And so there's this bit of a conundrum.
00:22:57:18 - 00:23:22:08
Kyle King
That's where it's, you know, the same level, sort of reflecting about what you said. It's like you're getting multiple requests, but the actual request can only come from one state Ministry of foreign affairs. Right. So how do you balance these requirements? Because it happens every single day, even down to the the average response. I were to use an example of and I don't know that it's happening, but say there is building upon your example, there's a wildfire somewhere.
00:23:22:08 - 00:23:40:07
Kyle King
And in southern Europe, which is likely the case today, you know, and then there's military assets in that municipality in that region and they have helicopters. I mean, obviously somebody from a mayor or, you know, mayor's office is making a phone call to their mod saying we need support. Right. So I think it's coming in at many layers.
00:23:40:07 - 00:23:44:15
Kyle King
And what you're sort of encountering in data is also happening on many different levels in our nations.
00:23:44:16 - 00:24:07:10
Tim Lannan
You're exactly right. And so this is one of the things when you have that single point of contact and the single decision, it also kind of gives us an arm's length distance from, you know, diplomacy issues that could be turned against the organization itself. So when it comes down to delivering earthquake support to Turkey, you know, Afad is the decision maker on where the goods go.
00:24:07:10 - 00:24:33:04
Tim Lannan
You know, who receives the the NATO's hands, who receives the assistance from UNHCR? Yeah. And it was very I only came to Natal in 2007, but we had this floods in Pakistan in 2010 and I read all the lessons learned of the 2005 earthquake there. And those were some of the accusations that, you know, it was the the smaller regional areas that were getting the assistance from Natal.
00:24:33:06 - 00:24:56:15
Tim Lannan
But at the end of the day, was the government that was deciding and, you know, there was accusations that the government was favoring certain regions and the bribes and the corruption. Sure, this goes on a lot, but when it into the Pakistan floods, Natal is only delivering the goods Islamabad airport and then it was the responsibility of the government to distribute that out.
00:24:56:17 - 00:25:23:10
Tim Lannan
So we had no contact and no, we had an arm's length distance from, you know, the decisions that were being taken and where the assistance was going. So we need to trust those organizations and it's not up to us to decide, no, we want these to go to this region or region wide. So it was very important to have those institutions in place functioning and with some integrity.
00:25:23:10 - 00:25:55:02
Kyle King
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that just raises sort of one of the important parts of this is that you and you mentioned it, which is you have to trust the institutions that you're delivering aid to. It doesn't matter where if you're coming from the red Cross or Natal, anybody else. Right. It's the same dilemma, which is if you deliver it to point A and it doesn't go farther than point A and it's never distributed, that's not necessarily, you know, in this case, NATO's responsibility to make sure that food gets to a Northwest district somewhere, you're delivering it based on trust that that government, those people, those institutions are wanting to do best for their communities and
00:25:55:02 - 00:26:12:23
Kyle King
provide that needed relief and that they're communicating the needs, that they're eliminating any sort of duplication of efforts and that they're actually taking advantage of what's being delivered and using it instead of maybe warehousing it or something else like that. But these are all things you have to have that trust because, you know, we're never going to audit anybody, right?
00:26:12:23 - 00:26:21:15
Kyle King
It's it's built on sort of the good faith of the fact that you've asked for a thousand blankets. We're going to give you a thousand blankets because you just had an earthquake or a flood or a fire.
00:26:21:16 - 00:26:45:09
Tim Lannan
Well, you're exactly right. You mentioned audit. And this comes back to some of the ARCC tracking that we were doing. We knew every single hospital that the ventilators from Natal, we knew exactly which hospital they were going to and who was receiving them. And this was kind of important because you're likely aware of that. You know, the US donated thousands and thousands of ventilators and the end of the day, no one really knew where they went.
00:26:45:09 - 00:27:09:11
Tim Lannan
Naito itself, we received a fair amount of ventilators from the US and we tracked them down to each and every hospital. So this was important for us because it's the nation's taxpayers money that is used to purchase those aid and supplies. So we're very diligent in the way we tracked and traced. So we had a monitoring and evaluation system in place when we were delivering COVID assistance.
00:27:09:11 - 00:27:10:04
Tim Lannan
Well, that's very good.
00:27:10:04 - 00:27:29:15
Kyle King
One of the concerns that I've seen from many nations who are accepting assistance is what are the requirements to follow that? Right. And so it's basically, you know, what are we signing up for? We accept this package of aid, you know, And so I think that nations are also cognizant and sometimes a bit hesitant about receiving aid or any bilateral assistance because they're not sure what the requirements are that follow that.
00:27:29:15 - 00:28:01:14
Kyle King
So if you've been able to do that and track it down to the individual hospital, I think that's a fantastic example here is now sort of shifting gears a little bit in terms of technology. As we've established, this is sort of multi-domain multi organization level coordination. You mentioned being on blitzes every day with UN and other agencies. What head have been any sort of advancements in technology that give everybody sort of a common operational picture or that have helped you in sort of delivery or the ability to do your job in coordination of relief specifically, if you do have to track things down to individual hospital levels?
00:28:01:14 - 00:28:30:02
Tim Lannan
Yeah. So it's a very good question because technology is accelerating developments in every domain. So why can't the same be done in the disaster response domain? Yes, sure. It's hard to predict an earthquake, but there are some predictability. Algorithms. Same with weather. Storms can be more prepared and understand these. So the technology world, yeah, COVID shook us into a technological league just with VTC.
00:28:30:04 - 00:28:57:08
Tim Lannan
We always thought we had to have these meetings in person. And of course, you know, our community itself has better face to face. You know, someone knows someone or knows someone that's all good. But when it comes down to delivering, the VTC was extremely helpful and everyone learned to work from video teleconferences. The social media aspect of it and all the WhatsApp Facebook pages all works and it helps getting people out of Afghanistan.
00:28:57:08 - 00:29:32:07
Tim Lannan
I don't know what we would have done without, you know, WhatsApp or without Facebook pages or, you know, because communications were not that strong that time and this information management. So there is a technology and the information management tools that are out there. So the other aspect in our community, we were testing this, so we had a 80 RCC exercise in 2018 and our exercises, they're very multinational, but it's an opportunity for nations to come and give demonstrations on their new technologies and their equipment.
00:29:32:07 - 00:29:56:09
Tim Lannan
And we had these drones flying, taking imagery. Imagery would go back to the nations capital where the technology was there. They could tell us how strong and structured the building was. We could identify casualties. And this was being tested back in 2018. So, you know, we're five years advanced on that. I'm sure the technology has come a lot further now.
00:29:56:09 - 00:30:17:01
Tim Lannan
Climate patterns, you know, we can do a lot more predictability with the technology that's out there nowadays. So just really amazed I'm not attacking myself, so I'm kind of glad I'm at the rear end of my time in this space. But the technology will help. This is going to save lives and it's going to really improve response for sure.
00:30:17:01 - 00:30:40:08
Kyle King
So we've covered quite a bit today in terms of even just, you know, interagency cooperation, civil domain sort of planning and the challenges and even the international sort of response mechanisms. But if you are reflecting now upon sort of, you know, your time at NATO's because of your previous military career and civilian career, and you're looking at this now, anybody that's getting into this civil planning efforts these days, what is sort of your top three recommendations you would give them?
00:30:40:11 - 00:31:02:07
Tim Lannan
Okay, I'll give it from an institutional perspective. But first and from an institutional perspective, the early warning systems are important. The early warning systems, the capabilities need to be there. You know, in fact, Natal has very little capability. It owns itself. We rely on nations that have those capabilities. So I would like to see Natal have that early warning capability.
00:31:02:07 - 00:31:21:02
Tim Lannan
You know, they do do have the intelligence community that works on security and defense issues. But if we're going to be serious about the humanitarian disaster response area, we should at least at a bare minimum, be tied in with the U.S early warning Network as well and the U.N.. Okay, So we should be at least a tied into there.
00:31:21:07 - 00:31:45:03
Tim Lannan
So the early discussions with the military, so the civilians before they make their decisions, they need to have those early discussions with the military, and that's on the capability, the options that the military has in their pocket. And absolutely crazy if the decision making is in advance of those discussions. You know, I'd like to shed light on some examples, but it not be appropriate for me to at this time just coming from Natal.
00:31:45:03 - 00:32:17:12
Tim Lannan
But I seen a lot of this were the decisions were not in line with military capacities were available because at the end of the day natal when they offer something and make a decision, they have to be assured that some nation is going to provide that capability because we don't have that capability as an institution itself. We have to rely on nations in-kind offers of assistance In this nature, the early deployment of liaison officers is paramount in consider the idea is a relationship broker.
00:32:17:12 - 00:32:38:05
Tim Lannan
We have to be in touch with the military strategic headquarters and they're the planners and they're the ones that know the capabilities and they're in discussion with the chiefs of defense and all of the nations that might offer something. So we need to be tying those relationships into the other institutions and aligning it with their objectives and needs.
00:32:38:05 - 00:33:07:14
Tim Lannan
And we have to tie in the national level interest and needs as well. And then we also have to have the the lower ops do the relationship broker as well with the operational headquarters, the you know, the Joint Wars Command, the Naples Joint Force Command, Bronson, those organizations that go and do the implement. Because at the end of the day ourselves, we're talking to unlike in Geneva, we're not talking to the, the onsite incident commander, we're talking to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
00:33:07:14 - 00:33:38:11
Tim Lannan
We're not talking to the onsite incident commander itself. So we need to make sure all of those relationships are connected. So that one, we have a shared understanding of the situation. We have to have that shared understanding of cultural sensitivities are the last thing we want to do is you can deliver as much aid as you want, but if you make one cultural diplomatic error that can destroy the image of the organization and this has happened in the past in earlier years in Natal.
00:33:38:11 - 00:34:01:22
Tim Lannan
So and then you've mentioned it to my fourth and final, you said three, I'm going to give the fourth because you've mentioned it as well. It's a constant, constant communication where it beats your VTC WhatsApp group, in-person discussions, but everyone at the multi level and it's a multilayered requirement for that communications so that if something is going on in the ground, the political decision makers know immediately as well.
00:34:01:22 - 00:34:26:23
Tim Lannan
So I mean, you have for now from an institutional perspective, but anyone that wants to be involved in a civil environment, military background is good. What really the they know how to plan what they are missing and won't say they're missing, but I'll say they're short on it. It's the experienced staff from these organizations, World Food Program, U.N., I'll show you all so that they can bring that shared understanding to the military.
00:34:26:23 - 00:34:51:13
Tim Lannan
Exchange of liaison officers is always good when there is a time of crises. Normally, those people that are good at doing that liaison are deployed to the disaster. And so that we forget all the time about those liaison officers. In fact, a strategic headquarters at Natal, they at one point were doing exchange with the World Food Program, and so they were doing an exchange of staff on a regular basis.
00:34:51:19 - 00:35:08:13
Tim Lannan
I think that has helped out from their planning perspectives. So in a nutshell, the idea of the civil is the shared understanding of, you know, the planning processes, the consequences of your actions. And I think that's super important if you're in this civil environment.
00:35:08:13 - 00:35:28:03
Kyle King
You know, it's always amazing to me the more recommendations I hear, the more that I am able to sort of bring them down to simple, simple, like human interaction, right? It's always like relationships and communication that have the biggest impact and it's never you know, you never have a recommendation of, well, if you just buy this software platform, then it'll fix all your problems, right?
00:35:28:04 - 00:35:47:05
Kyle King
So it's always coming down to individual relationships, shared understanding and common effort that that is is helping in any sort of disaster emergency or crisis management field. So I very much appreciate those recommendations and I think they echo very well for anybody. It doesn't matter where you are. I mean, international domain like where you're operating or even at a community level.
00:35:47:05 - 00:36:02:09
Kyle King
I mean, we have shared interests across communities and we just have to keep that in mind. So. Well, that's all the time we have for today's episode of Crisis Conflict Emerge made of a podcast. We want to give a huge thank you to our guests, Tim, for his time and sharing his valuable insights on the civil relationship and disaster response planning.
00:36:02:11 - 00:36:05:10
Kyle King
It's really an honor to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us, Al.
00:36:05:10 - 00:36:08:10
Tim Lannan
Thank you so much for having me on this again.
00:36:08:16 - 00:36:21:19
Kyle King
And so to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you have any feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please don't hesitate to reach out to us on our website or social media channels. And if you like the topics and discussions, please share and leave a review on your favorite podcast player. Until next time, stay safe and keep learning.
